Curse

Darmikau · Jul 08, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

...Why not discuss ways to make it living again?

Do you think it should be up to players or Anet to create a "PvE Renaissance?"

What are ways that you think a rebirth of PvE play could be achieved? Bonuses/Buffs for playing with other real people? Rewards obtainable only when others are in your party? New, large-scale incentives for creating new characters and playing through missions?

Do you think books and Zaishen quests have had a noticeable impact on PvE play, or are they just short-lived gimmicks? What could be improved about either?

What about Nicholas the Traveler? He seems effective in getting people out into remote locations, why not something similar for missions, or entire campaigns?

Do you think it's worth it to try and save PvE for what it's worth, or are we better off moping until GW2 arrives?

What do you think would most likely make people want to play PvE again, with or without real players?

Would you encourage the idea of non-monetary rewards for PvE play? Like the addition of new emotes or customization abilities as opposed to rewards that serve only to give you money or experience.

Just a few questions to get some ideas stirring. Maybe even just talking about ways we can make PvE better for ourselves will encourage people to want to play it. I already know I want to do some PvE with my monk.

FoxBat · Jul 08, 2009, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Change the PvP/E split so that all NPCs, mobs and heroes alike, use the pvp versions of skills.

1) Hardcore PvErs will learn the split and not be as surprised/confused in when entering PvP zones, hence less of a barrier.

2) People don't have to whine about mobs getting overpowered or AI broken by functionality changes (as much)

3) The only justification for some of the idiotic PvE buffs is to encourage bad players to play together instead of with heroes. That doesn't help when your rit and necro heroes blow everything up.

Of course it would cause mass QQ and never happen, but I likes it....

On a more constructive note, a better party search system would benefit pvp/e alike.

Stills · Jul 08, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

books are just a way to max titles quicker and boost the effectiveness of the pve skills, while a good intention (and i've filled quite.... too many... books) it's just another reason to grind. and now with heroes the books don't instigate team forming at all. zaishen keys... are a start, but i think all that did was respark the "run me run me!" aspect of the missions. personally i really liked the entire storyline. and i reroll my chars a lot just so i can play them from ascalon (pre and post for non proph chars) all the way through gwen to give that "ahhh" feeling once you've finished a mission for the first time. z-keys are a bonus ^_^. so for me pve hasn't become a "farm until i die, or until they nerf shadowform" slugfest. i still actually enjoy the story. feel free to pm me anytime if you wanna pve through a campaign for fun!

as for encouraging more pve'ers? i think that will have to be implemented into gw2, i think i can speak for alot of people when i say that we have a very refined understanding of this games' mechanics including a knowledge of skill effects/monster placement and patrols/builds that work and gimmick builds effects. the new and fresh stuff hopefully will come with gw2. not much you can add to a 5 year old concept. events are fun but not my thing personally (besides getting the titles ^.^) so to reiterate, the story line is what intrigues me and keeps me playing through. I actually think that anet has it right when they buff a class every quarter in an effort to balance the game, it makes that class interesting again (for me at least) and i can't wait for the derv buff! I'm interested in what other people think though.

upier · Jul 08, 2009, 09:30 PM // 21:30

New content.
There really is not much the players can change in a persistent world.

lutz · Jul 08, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

It's dead because nobody in the PvE world knows what skill balance is, and continually advocates against a balanced PvE aspect of the game.

All you need to do to bring PvE back:

1. Take out all PvE versions of skills.
2. Take out all PvE skills.

= done.

jiggles · Jul 08, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Agreed, PvE'rs have it so well. Imba PvE only skills, imba PvE skills, titles that effect how much damage you deal or don't receive. Make everything the same as PvP skills, and some new conent (not new quests) and it will be fine. So long as Anet doesn't fold to pressure from the PvE'rs to make things easy again.

Braxton619 · Jul 08, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

3 Words:

RoJ, Perma, Discord

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 08, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

It's dead because nobody in the PvE world knows what skill balance is, and continually advocates against a balanced PvE aspect of the game.

All you need to do to bring PvE back:

1. Take out all PvE versions of skills.
2. Take out all PvE skills.

= done.

No faction pve skills = massive rage quit
No Eotn pve skills = massive rage quit
PvE skill conversion to PvP = massive rage quit

If anet removed PvE only skills it would make owning Eotn pointless and would be considered a scam. It would also make all that work maxing those titles wasted effort. In other words it would only hurt PvE in the long run.

Also PvP versions are not designed for PvE mobs so it would ruin PvE play.

There is no way to "Fix" PvE when the majority of the player base are jerks. No one wants to play with jerks. You end up ignoring them or turning chat off and then can't coordinate.

PvE isn't dead for many people. I play with my guild or I pug when I want to and I have no trouble doing either. I also have my awesome alliance to group with.

PvE isn't dead, its the community in general thats the problem.

But I do love how everyone's answer to fixing a problem is "Force players to play together".

So go ahead a nerf the hell out of the skills, we will just find new builds that do the same thing and when those get nerfed we will repeat the process until something better comes along and then GW will actually be dead with a few thousand fans left to play the same crap over and over with boring balanced team skills unable to do anything without hours of waiting and planning.

Oh yeah, sounds fun!
/sarcasm.

dusanyu · Jul 08, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Remove God Mode and make PvE challenging and not a joke

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 08, 2009, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

Remove God Mode and make PvE challenging and not a joke

So one build destroyed the game huh? No it didn't. So fixing that one build won't fix the game either.

PvE is challenging depending on which profession you play. So buffing PvE difficulty will only make it harder for some and impossible for others. Which means more rage quitters which means less people to play with which kills the game faster.

Mr Fizzle · Jul 08, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Rewards for grouping with players , and disadvantages for having mostly hench/hero teams.

lutz · Jul 08, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

No faction pve skills = massive rage quit
No Eotn pve skills = massive rage quit
PvE skill conversion to PvP = massive rage quit

If anet removed PvE only skills it would make owning Eotn pointless and would be considered a scam. It would also make all that work maxing those titles wasted effort. In other words it would only hurt PvE in the long run.

Also PvP versions are not designed for PvE mobs so it would ruin PvE play.

There is no way to "Fix" PvE when the majority of the player base are jerks. No one wants to play with jerks. You end up ignoring them or turning chat off and then can't coordinate.

PvE isn't dead for many people. I play with my guild or I pug when I want to and I have no trouble doing either. I also have my awesome alliance to group with.

PvE isn't dead, its the community in general thats the problem.

I'll agree that it's the community that's the problem.
The community likes playing with a huge number of overpowered skills that doesn't require any sort of thinking at all. These skills aren't supposed to be in the game at all. (and, what the hell? PvP versions not designed for killing PvE mobs? Is this a joke? Do you need skills specifically designed to kill PvE mobs? You lose all credibility instantly.)

The problem is, it gets old pretty fast. Everyone is now rushing back saying their god-mode and instant-kill skills are not fun anymore.

The only thing left in PvE is farming. There is no challenge involved with missions or quests at all, let alone balance. PvE would have lasted a little bit longer with balance, as people wouldn't complete everything so fast. Unfortunately, everyone continued to whine because their subpar and terrible builds weren't good (ironic, isn't it) so ArenaNet, being ArenaNet, did the worst changes possible.

Lishy · Jul 08, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Realistically, GW is an rpg with an ending.
There is no way to "revive" a story progressive adventure rpg without grinding, farming, or new areas.
In this case, unless we get new areas or quests, there is no way to "revive" it.

What we're asking for is to "revive" final fantasy 7, for example. Which, of course, is impossible. Once the playerbase had beaten the game, all that's left is farmers. A dead game is inevitable to ANY game. But the guild wars community is a bit too ignorant to realize that.
When you look at games like WoW and such, they're in the same problem.

Racthoh · Jul 08, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

There's nothing that can be done. You have some of the players overjoyed with the imbalanced skills others who want them dead. Some praising consumables, others not. Some say the game is dead others say zaishen missions have revied pugging. Everyone has their own view on what should be taken out or left in that it would be impossible to really please them all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

If anet removed PvE only skills it would make owning Eotn pointless and would be considered a scam. It would also make all that work maxing those titles wasted effort.

So all of those missions and dungeons are what then? Titles from the three campaigns don't mean anything? The armor skins, weapon skins, skills, none of that matters solely because the PvE only skills were removed? I guess owning the original game is pointless since none of the titles from that game do anything to make my character better.

Bug John · Jul 08, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

It's dead because nobody in the PvE world knows what skill balance is, and continually advocates against a balanced PvE aspect of the game.

All you need to do to bring PvE back:

1. Take out all PvE versions of skills.
2. Take out all PvE skills.

= done.

rofl

Making pve interesting by removing content ?

You sure are an interesting one... Don't you think you already did enough for the game by getting ursan nerfed ? (Yes, this is meant to be sarcastic, as I can't see anything good that went out of the ursan nerf : dead areas and SC builds.)

I don't think it's possible to do much more than what's already been done to make PvE interesting again, only new content can do it, and that's not likely to happen with GW2 being under development.

To renew someone's interest, you have to add something new, zquest and Nicholas are great additions, good examples of what has to be done.

Maybe they could add new stuffs, buff some skills, add some quests, try to make elite areas more lively this way. Anything more would be unrealistic, but would be welcome for sure.

Maybe they should announce what HoM will unlock in GW2, if the benefits are interesting, lots of people may play again.

Xsiriss · Jul 08, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

It just isn't rewarding. Sure I can kill every foe in every area,in every continent for some words beneath my name...but why? What guild wars needs is some MORE CONTENT and NEW IDEAS. Guild wars is a game that defies the classic style of rpg 'uber leet gear', thus it should be made mroe about the visual look of things.

What anet thus need to do is sort out clipping issues, release a ton of new skins, make dungeons un-runnable whilst making there be like 4 drops per player in nm and 8 in HM (why the F not, nothing's worth much anymore anyways, and have vanquishing chests that drop 4 pieces of loot that can range from: armour 'blueprints' for things such as angel wings or an uber leet looking helemet, these of course being un-tradable;new skin types duh;rare materials for the blueprints. With the rewards relating to the area of course,so all very rarest things can't be earnt just by doing daily vfff.

Gennadios · Jul 08, 2009, 10:23 PM // 22:23

I'm under the impression that PvE skills were introduced to give the whiny WoW crowd something to play with. They can't use insane levels and stat growths to mask a lack of skill, so instead they'll use over-powered skills/brainless builds instead.

Personally, I'd prefer heroes with an all PvP bar than the various flavors of PvE ineptitude. At least heroes/henchies are stupid in a very controlled and predictable manner.

I can't agree that PvE is dead however. All it takes is 12 or so competent, active ppl on your friends list, at that point you'll always have 2 or 3 ppl that are willing to join in for whatever you're doing. As long as you trust their skills, build haggling is a moot point unless you're trying to set up for synergy.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 08, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

I'll agree that it's the community that's the problem.
The community likes playing with a huge number of overpowered skills that doesn't require any sort of thinking at all. These skills aren't supposed to be in the game at all. (and, what the hell? PvP versions not designed for killing PvE mobs? Is this a joke? Do you need skills specifically designed to kill PvE mobs? You lose all credibility instantly.)

The problem is, it gets old pretty fast. Everyone is now rushing back saying their god-mode and instant-kill skills are not fun anymore.

The only thing left in PvE is farming. There is no challenge involved with missions or quests at all, let alone balance. PvE would have lasted a little bit longer with balance, as people wouldn't complete everything so fast. Unfortunately, everyone continued to whine because their subpar and terrible builds weren't good (ironic, isn't it) so ArenaNet, being ArenaNet, did the worst changes possible.

Ok well heres the thing, If you changed all PvE skills to PvP versions, then you would also have to change how mobs work. Many PvE skills are nerfed in PvP so a bunch of skills would be pointless to play. It would also increase the time needed to play areas and no one wants to spend an hour or more in every area/mission/quest. This is one reason why people hate prophecies, because of the longer time required to run through missions.

Again, PvP skills are designed for teams of 8, not teams of 16-20. So it would change the way PvE played completely and it could very easily destroy certain professions like the paragon, even more than it already is.

Also if "everyone" was whining in the first place, doesn't that tell people something? That the majority enjoys overpowered builds? That they don't care for balance as much as sheer killing joy?

The point of a challenge is to do it a few times and then say "WHOO, I actually did it!" not " Well I did it but I doubt I wanna spend the next year doing it over and over and over again."

Playing a game is not suppose to be exhausting, its suppose to be relaxing. People constantly say PvE is too easy and needs to be balanced. It needs to be harder. You're going to end up making it almost impossible to enjoy. Whats the point in playing a game thats more work than reward? Bragging rights? Ego boosts?

The rewards suck in GW. You must grind to get the nice loot and you must grind in the hardest areas to get the best loot. Yet making those areas, much less all areas harder is not the answer unless the game is corrected all together. Rewards have to be worth the effort and ALL professions have to be equal in power.

Now the game will always be a solo game because of PvE only skills and Heroes. Nothing can change that no matter what because we bought Nightfall and Eotn for those things. Removing those things would require a refund for anyone who purchased those two installments. Not gonna happen.

So if "Everyone" is crying about the godmode nerfs then why is anet nerfing the game if the majority enjoys godmode? Because the minority bitches so much?

The old guildwars is dead and nothing will bring it back. Everyone complained about prophecies and factions, but both of those installments encouraged (for the most part) team play. Due to the common attitude of the community, Heroes were a must. Due to the amount of difficulty many had with the game, PvE only skills were a must.

Player's have no one to blame but themselves. Its time the community accepted the game as it is, instead of harrassing Anet to change it to the vision of the few, when the many are happy with what they have.

If the game was new (new missions, new quests) then balance would be important. But after you beat the game 2-3 times, you might enjoy a cheat code or two. You beat GTA4 and now want the weapon/ammo code for fun. Same idea.

More work with less reward is not a benefit when other games provide more rewards for less work. Anet knows this, or it should.

Personally I run a war/mo with power attack, counter attack, furious attack, executioners strike (replaced now with brawling headbutt), endure pain or dolies sig, wars endurance, mending touch (remove 2 conditions) and res sig. So I do enjoy the current challenge with the game. Nothings overly easy for me. But it would be nice to have the option of very easy mode/super money maker build, if I wanted it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

There's nothing that can be done. You have some of the players overjoyed with the imbalanced skills others who want them dead. Some praising consumables, others not. Some say the game is dead others say zaishen missions have revied pugging. Everyone has their own view on what should be taken out or left in that it would be impossible to really please them all.

So all of those missions and dungeons are what then? Titles from the three campaigns don't mean anything? The armor skins, weapon skins, skills, none of that matters solely because the PvE only skills were removed? I guess owning the original game is pointless since none of the titles from that game do anything to make my character better.

Maybe instead of skills they instead removed professions. How would you feel if they removed the dervish or paragon or monk or warrior? Would it make the other professions pointless? Would it make playing the game pointless? What if they removed the GWAMM title track? Would it make all other titles pointless? How about if they removed elite skills completely from the game or removed elite areas from the game?

Do you see what I'm getting at? Removing content others like and possibly purchased the game for is wrong. You can't include something for a long period of time and then remove it. It pisses off a lot of players and amuses a few and the compensation is never worth it.

Also, about Eotn. What does it provide beyond the skills? A very short campaign. Reskinned armors. No new professions and very few new items. Yes, removing the new skills would make owning eotn pointless. Once you beat the campaign its over. But atleast you can use the skills in all the installments. For me, the reskinned armor has always been a let-down.

Oh, but we have the HoM. pfft. Eotn is PvE only skills and brings very little to the game beyond that.

capblye · Jul 08, 2009, 11:17 PM // 23:17

You say PvE is broken.
I say it's just fine.
I dont play PvP, and have no desire to.
I dont pug either.
I am a casual player.
I like the PVE enviroment the way it is.
You say skills are imbalanced.
I think the skills are fine.
If a hero team seems overbalanced to you, because you can devote hours upon hours of your time to analyzing how it effects PvP, or how it makes the economy suffer or any myriad of other arguments ... great for you.
I could care less.
Its a game. Its fun to kill time with.
Broken? how can fun be broken? because its not challenging enough for you?
Its plenty challenging enough for me ... Because i cannot devote years of my life fine tuning how quickly i interrupt a skill on an opponent.
Because i have no interest in dissecting skills to the point that i know them better than the developer.
I have no interest in the gw economy and how its effected by perma blah.
I have a mortgage to pay ... i worry about THAT economy.

To summarize ... the game is fun as it is for me.
It aint broke, so why fix it?

gremlin · Jul 08, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by capblye

You say PvE is broken.
I say it's just fine.
I dont play PvP, and have no desire to.
I dont pug either.
I am a casual player.
I like the PVE enviroment the way it is.
You say skills are imbalanced.
I think the skills are fine.
If a hero team seems overbalanced to you, because you can devote hours upon hours of your time to analyzing how it effects PvP, or how it makes the economy suffer or any myriad of other arguments ... great for you.
I could care less.
Its a game. Its fun to kill time with.
Broken? how can fun be broken? because its not challenging enough for you?
Its plenty challenging enough for me ... Because i cannot devote years of my life fine tuning how quickly i interrupt a skill on an opponent.
Because i have no interest in dissecting skills to the point that i know them better than the developer.
I have no interest in the gw economy and how its effected by perma blah.
I have a mortgage to pay ... i worry about THAT economy.

To summarize ... the game is fun as it is for me.
It aint broke, so why fix it?

qft
to the op
Its only broken in your opinion and that of some others, many of us think its still a fun game.

Any attempt by players to "fix" the game are doomed to failure

Firstly because all the players have differing ideas as to what needs fixing and how to go about it.
Secondly many of these players are following their own agenda ie they want it fixed in some way so they can take advantage of it for some undisclosed gain.